Important Notice:
We regret to inform you that our free phpBB forum hosting service will be discontinued by the end of June 30, 2024.
If you wish to migrate to our paid hosting service, please contact billing@hostonnet.com.
 |
|
 |
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| |
 |
 |
|
BJ
|
He Who Founds Wyrmlings
|
| Joined: 04 Dec 2006 |
| Posts: 3997 |
| Location: Sa sikmura ng Bakunawa |
|
Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:36 pm Post subject: PC, NPC, and Monster ability score arrays |
 |
| dark_axis wrote: | | shouldn't this be on the d&d discussions thread???? |
Well, it's a request for stats, so I thought it should be here. If not, the moderators can shift it somewhere else...
28-point buy is my standard for NPC's. I still use use elite array, though, for the more exotic races like Minotaurs etc. Minibosses are built with 30 pt, while big bosses are at 32.
I don't put CR increases for that. Some are just given better chances than others, methinks.
Why did I tell you to use 25pt? 'Coz I want to encourage the usage of the stats that you rolled. Some are just given better stats than others. 
Oh, these are gang-type Drow. I'm already developing their bosses, myself. I didn't specify their class, coz I want them to be diverse. But, if i must choose, prolly a cleric and some 9swords build.
Thanks again, guys. 
Goderator: split from original thread.2/24/07
_________________
Nosfecatu Publishing |
    |
|
|
|
 |
 |
| Back to top |
|
| |
|
 |
|
|
|
boy_bakal
|
Lord of Pwnage
|
| Joined: 30 Nov 2006 |
| Posts: 1920 |
| Location: Zero |
|
|
Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:08 pm Post subject: |
|
| BJ wrote: |
Why did I tell you to use 25pt? 'Coz I want to encourage the usage of the stats that you rolled. Some are just given better stats than others.
|
oh, and isn't 25 pt. buy the standard alternate system anyway? so, y'know... there you go.
as for builds... Crc 12, plus a random assortment of the other aforementioned dudes. Kiaransalee domains are Chaos, Evil, Drow, Undeath, and Retribution.
_________________
And I'm still, still longing. Still cold... so cold. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Xtian
|
Goderator
|
| Joined: 30 Nov 2006 |
| Posts: 3260 |
| Location: Avernus |
|
|
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:23 am Post subject: |
|
| Quote: | | Why did I tell you to use 25pt? 'Coz I want to encourage the usage of the stats that you rolled. |
It is I who told you I was going to use 25 pt. 
Assuming that certain sensible point buys encourage using rolled stats, lets see ...
Let's do some more numbers analysis! 
| Quote: | | The average roll on 4d6 drop lowest is 12.244, compared to 10.5 on a straight 3d6. |
source: click here
Also supported here 2 (saying 12.25 average) and here 3 (12.25 also)
another source
Given that the average of 4d6 discard lowest (our method of rolling stats)is 12.25, our arrays would be: 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13.5. This array is equivalent of 25 point buy is the 13.5 is rounded down or 26 point buy if rounded up (14).
But wait!!! Why use average in this analysis? Average is "defined as the average of a distribution is equal to the SX / N." Average or mean is used to approximate or expect a random variable. Just approximate. It doesnt tell how probable a value will show. And it is very sensitive to extreme values.
Let's view the table.
| Code: | 3 -- 1 -- 0.08%
4 -- 4 -- 0.31%
5 -- 10 -- 0.77%
6 -- 21 -- 1.62%
7 -- 38 -- 2.93%
8 -- 62 -- 4.78%
9 -- 91 -- 7.02%
10 -- 122 -- 9.41%
11 -- 148 -- 11.42%
12 -- 167 -- 12.89%
13 -- 172 -- 13.27%
14 -- 160 -- 12.35%
15 -- 131 -- 10.11%
16 -- 94 -- 7.25%
17 -- 54 -- 4.17%
18 -- 21 -- 1.62% |
From the table above it is more likely to get a score of 13 followed closely by 14 and 12. "Most likely" is different from average. 12.25 is the average but getting 13 is more likely. Getting the six most probable scores, 15,14,13,12,11,10 and this is equivalent to 28 point buy.
Since 28 point buy is closer on emulating 4d6 discard lowest method (as opposed to using average) it is more player-friendly when the rolled stats are very low. Using 28 point buy is almost as good as rolling 4d6 discard lowest.
That's of course assuming that the players' mentality is:
Stats rolled>25 point buy: Players use stats
Stats rolled<25 point buy: Players use point buy
What happens with 25 point buy is you are keeping characters with low rolls stick with low point buy. Just a little better. But it fails your objective. Your policy does nothing to players with high rolls but little on players with low rolls. It fails to encourage players with low rolls to use their rolls.
Of course... there are exceptions. Certain player motivations such as wanting a starting score of 18 would choose a point buy even if it is significantly lower than the rolled scores' point buy equivalent.
e.g.
rolled: 14,15,14,13,12,12 (33 point buy) againts 25 point buy.
The player really wants an 18. So he sticks to 25 point buy. Array: 18, 8,8,8,14,11
Why would a player do that? because the class the player in question would use does not suffer from MAD (multiple attribute disorder). Sample classes like that: wizard (dump str, cha, wis, decent con, decent dex, 18 int), druid (dump str, cha, dex, int, 18 wis, decent con). I could think more . Speaking of MADs Fighter suffers the most from it. Their feat trees depend entitrely on their ability scores.
Anyway, above is assuming 25 point buy encourages players to use rolled stats. Personally, using rolled or point buy is ultimately at the player's discretion.
| Quote: | | Some are just given better stats than others. |
| Quote: | | 28-point buy is my standard for NPC's. I still use use elite array, though, for the more exotic races like Minotaurs etc. Minibosses are built with 30 pt, while big bosses are at 32. |
Some are given better stats than others ... true ... ergo they are more powerful, harder to kill, and consumes more resource right?
And NPC stats are better than mine? They must all die!!! Twice!
And so ... some bosses are using worse stats than others. Which means that we should experience fighting bosses with sucky ability scores/arrays right? Experience fighting a big boss with worse ability scores/array than his minions.
We fight bosses with CR much higher than our average party level and they have the advantage in ability scores ... They must all die.
Twice!
and oh ... also ... we should meet some ... dretches with very high charisma and/or intelligence and some balors with very low ability scores. Oh yeah, dont change the cr in any case you decided to throw us a balor with lower strength and constitution and dexterity but very intelligent make a sense sarcasm check
| Quote: | | oh, and isn't 25 pt. buy the standard alternate system anyway? so, y'know... there you go. |
What do you mean standard? |
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Xtian
|
Goderator
|
| Joined: 30 Nov 2006 |
| Posts: 3260 |
| Location: Avernus |
|
|
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:36 am Post subject: |
|
Not intending to derail the thread.
If my post above goes into a full blown discussion I might split it unless the author (BJ) says it fine for him to continue such discussion in his thread. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
dark_axis
|
Eternal Elan
|
| Joined: 02 Jan 2007 |
| Posts: 1898 |
| Location: 666th Layer of Hell |
|
|
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:54 am Post subject: |
|
wow!!! lot of reaction from a one liner!!! hehehe guys i wanna ask.. oh never mind...
_________________
Only by confronting your darkest fears can you find the light...
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
boy_bakal
|
Lord of Pwnage
|
| Joined: 30 Nov 2006 |
| Posts: 1920 |
| Location: Zero |
|
|
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:59 am Post subject: |
|
| Xtian wrote: |
What do you mean standard? |
It's in the DMG... or maybe the PHB. I just remember reading about it in the DMG, but I dunno if it's actually there or if it just references the PHB.
_________________
And I'm still, still longing. Still cold... so cold. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Pitz-Ikko
|
D' Original Henio
|
| Joined: 16 Jan 2007 |
| Posts: 719 |
| Location: Abu Dhabi |
|
|
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:08 am Post subject: |
|
IIRC, the 25-pt buy is used in official WotC-sanctioned games. A friend over here used to play in those games back in the US. It's not actually *standard*; it's just the *most used* for its tendecy toward DM-friendly PCs, if you know what I mean. 
EDIT:
@ BJ: I forgot that it's the Abyss. You should just change the language to Abyssal (I put Infernal 'coz I was thinking Hell).
You might like to note that a CR14 with 4 CR5 monsters still constitute an EL14 encounter. Mighty fine to have...say...shadow mastiffs around?
_________________
A little surprising, really...
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
dark_axis
|
Eternal Elan
|
| Joined: 02 Jan 2007 |
| Posts: 1898 |
| Location: 666th Layer of Hell |
|
|
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:15 am Post subject: |
|
hehehehe dm friendly doesn't sound fun.... means no power gaming right????
_________________
Only by confronting your darkest fears can you find the light...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Pitz-Ikko
|
D' Original Henio
|
| Joined: 16 Jan 2007 |
| Posts: 719 |
| Location: Abu Dhabi |
|
|
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:16 am Post subject: |
|
| dark_axis wrote: | | hehehehe dm friendly doesn't sound fun.... means no power gaming right???? |
Oh, you don't have to start with Wisdom 18 to powergame a CoDzilla.
_________________
A little surprising, really...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
dark_axis
|
Eternal Elan
|
| Joined: 02 Jan 2007 |
| Posts: 1898 |
| Location: 666th Layer of Hell |
|
|
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:17 am Post subject: |
|
yeah right but boommbastic stats make a lot of difference,if you know what i mean
_________________
Only by confronting your darkest fears can you find the light...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Pitz-Ikko
|
D' Original Henio
|
| Joined: 16 Jan 2007 |
| Posts: 719 |
| Location: Abu Dhabi |
|
|
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:21 am Post subject: |
|
| dark_axis wrote: | | yeah right but boommbastic stats make a lot of difference,if you know what i mean |
Hell, yeah! Ever seen a Con 26 on a Barbarian? D@mn straight it makes a *ton* of difference! (And a ton of headache for DMs, too  )
_________________
A little surprising, really...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
boy_bakal
|
Lord of Pwnage
|
| Joined: 30 Nov 2006 |
| Posts: 1920 |
| Location: Zero |
|
|
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 2:41 am Post subject: |
|
| Pitz-Ikko wrote: |
Hell, yeah! Ever seen a Con 26 on a Barbarian? D@mn straight it makes a *ton* of difference! (And a ton of headache for DMs, too ) |
That reminds me of my Warforged Juggernaut Frenzied Berserker...
"Frenzy's done now. You're fatigued."
"Nope. Immune."
"Um... exhausted?"
"Also immune."
"Ok, fine. Some form of ability drain, then."
"Okay... oh no, wait. Immune."
"><"
heeheehee...
_________________
And I'm still, still longing. Still cold... so cold. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Xtian
|
Goderator
|
| Joined: 30 Nov 2006 |
| Posts: 3260 |
| Location: Avernus |
|
|
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 3:35 pm Post subject: |
|
| Pitz-Ikko wrote: | | it's just the *most used* for its tendecy toward DM-friendly PCs, if you know what I mean. |
Not every class suffers from MAD.
Hence ...
| Pitz-Ikko wrote: | | Hell, yeah! Ever seen a Con 26 on a Barbarian? D@mn straight it makes a *ton* of difference! (And a ton of headache for DMs, too ) |
____________________
How about the fighter? ... He suffers the most from MAD. Help! Help! |
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
BJ
|
He Who Founds Wyrmlings
|
| Joined: 04 Dec 2006 |
| Posts: 3997 |
| Location: Sa sikmura ng Bakunawa |
|
|
Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:54 pm Post subject: |
|
This should warrant it's own thread....
All right, here's the thing.Sorry if I did not explain it properly. I want a player to use the stats he/she rolled. Being able to work with what the die roll gives you, I believe, is a skill necessary in DnD.
I do realize the need for a minimum. I mean, there are just moments wherein you just roll really bad. That is why I use elite array (which is a 25pt system) for generic NPC's. If you have a PC class level, then you have to warrant at least an elite array.
For monsters advanced using HD or template only, I kept the original array of 10,10,10,11,11,11. Because they are unclassed. See? If I was really nasty, I'd use pt system on that flying purple worm, too.
I am assuming, though, that on the Abyss, normal classed mortals with only the elite array just won't survive (with PC's who rolled badly, who are able to overcome the odds, being the obvious exception). That is why I asked the Thanatos Drow to be built using 28pt.
Minibosses like Narak'tarn'h the Cowardly are built using 30 pt, while uber creepies like Kas are built with 32-pt.
If I rememer Xtian's roll set correctly, it was unevenly distributed, yet at least 25 points. (correct me if I'm wrong)
That is what the 25point is for: A minimum to help the PC's. I don't want someone to get decent rolls, only to discard it for the artificially customizable 28-pt build. Play what you roll.
I am fully aware of the statistics. I don't need help with my math.
I put a lot of time and effort in thinking about which array/pt system to use for every particular NPC. I also put a lot of thought into how the PC stats should be rolled. I'm sorry, but I just firmly believe that playing with what you roll is fundamentally DnD. It is unpredictable, it is fun.
I also believe that i'm being fair as a DM. I approve almost anything for the campaign (vow of poverty, spells from various sourcebooks, psionics,etc) as long as you keep a handy hard copy nearby. Even if it's supposed to be a Book of the Nine Swords Campaign.
However, people, I understand if you think I'm power tripping. Players inevitably would feel that about their DM's at one point in their campaign. But before you present me with statistics, think about this: If I am DMtripping you, would I even bother explaining why I chose these stats?
I am explaining these things because I believe that I gave each build thourough thought. And rest assured, I considered the statistics. Come on. I like stat (the application, not the subject). You should at least know me for that.
Should anyone think that I am unfair as a DM, and I am power-tripping them, or I'm limitting what they can use, etc, then approach me. If after talking to me, they still think my technique is wrong, and that it belies their aility to have fun, then stop playing on my game. That simple. This is a message to everyone playing B9S. Yes, I am strict. But hey, someone has to be.
_________________
Nosfecatu Publishing |
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Xtian
|
Goderator
|
| Joined: 30 Nov 2006 |
| Posts: 3260 |
| Location: Avernus |
|
|
Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:48 pm Post subject: |
|
| Quote: | | This should warrant it's own thread.... |
Done sir.
| Quote: | | For monsters advanced using HD or template only, I kept the original array of 10,10,10,11,11,11. Because they are unclassed. See? If I was really nasty, I'd use pt system on that flying purple worm, too. |
No sir it is not because they are underclassed. That's becaused the stats provided there are for average members of their species. Give 'em arrays and they could count as unique.
| Quote: | | If I rememer Xtian's roll set correctly, it was unevenly distributed, yet at least 25 points. (correct me if I'm wrong) |
You remembered it wrong. It wasn't at least 25 points. And it was so evenly distributed that my primary stat would end up only few points higher than my lowest. That is unacceptable in a high powered campaign.
| Quote: | | I don't want someone to get decent rolls, only to discard it for the artificially customizable 28-pt build. |
If the rolls were decent, why change to point build?
| Quote: | | I am fully aware of the statistics. I don't need help with my math. |
No one was telling you here that you were not aware of your statistics and No one was implying here that you needed help with your math.
| Quote: | | I'm sorry, but I just firmly believe that playing with what you roll is fundamentally DnD. |
Some people roll then choose class. Some people choose class then roll. The former is more likely to be adaptable to your policy. The latter is not. It favors only one kind of player, ergo,
| Quote: | | It is unpredictable, it is fun. |
would not apply to all people.
| Quote: | | However, people, I understand if you think I'm power tripping. Players inevitably would feel that about their DM's at one point in their campaign. But before you present me with statistics, think about this: If I am DMtripping you, would I even bother explaining why I chose these stats? |
i don't think you are dmtripping. What I think is your point buy is not appropriate for your campaign. Though 4d6 take highest 3 and 25 point buy may be the standard ability score generation method, the campaign's power level is not so standard. I believe it is in tough to high-powered campaign.
Hell, my original plan of my master transmogrifist was to choose flavor creatures but with my low HD, nerfed polymorphing rules, and the natural 20x4 crit from a hammer, my focus now is on surviving. And if you (or others) think that I am powergaming in your campaign look at the signs:
1. character alignment is good.
2. character is killable.
3. character is killable.
4. character is very killable.
5. no persistent polymorphing tricks.
6. character is killable. in so many ways.
7. character alignment is not evil.
| Quote: | | And rest assured, I considered the statistics. Come on. I like stat (the application, not the subject). You should at least know me for that. |
No one here is doubting your statistics. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Pitz-Ikko
|
D' Original Henio
|
| Joined: 16 Jan 2007 |
| Posts: 719 |
| Location: Abu Dhabi |
|
|
Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:16 am Post subject: |
|
I dunno what is all this tripping about the 25-pt. buy system. Why, isn't the DM generous enough to even warrant it, *as an option* to the 4d6 roll?
Besides, if I'm guessing correctly, BJ is DMing a rather large group of 6-7 players. A 25-pt. buy comes into play very neatly here, esp. since the players will now have relatively low arrays and will have to rely on their complementing abilities for success. It teaches teamwork and the importance of being good at what you're supposed to be contributing to the team. This also discourages MAD, which is Multiple Attribute Dependency.
_________________
A little surprising, really...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Xtian
|
Goderator
|
| Joined: 30 Nov 2006 |
| Posts: 3260 |
| Location: Avernus |
|
|
Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:48 pm Post subject: |
|
| Pitz-Ikko wrote: | | It teaches teamwork and the importance of being good at what you're supposed to be contributing to the team. |
Emphasis mine. That would be the function of min-maxing and nothing directly to do with point buy.
| Pitz-Ikko wrote: | | This also discourages MAD, which is Multiple Attribute Dependency. |
MAD depends on the class. Fighter suffers from MAD. Paladin suffers from MAD. Druid nope. Wizard nope. A typical party fighter needs high strength, constitution, dexterity, wisdom. Having low ability scores prevent players from playing intelligent fighter.
And the paladin ... decent wis for spellcasting, high strength, con, charisma. Either you play stupid paladin or clumsy paladin.
Wizards on the other hand can go with 8 str (useless, not carrying armor, only spell components), 8 wis (good will), 8 cha (what for?). What is necessary is having very hign int, high con. Dex depends whether the wizard is ray heavy or not.
Do i still need to discuss druids?
When you said it discourages MAD, are you saying that we should choose classes that dont suffer from MAD?
Go Go Go strength 8, dex 8, con 15, int 9, wis 18, cha 8 druid20!!!
| Pitz-Ikko wrote: | | I dunno what is all this tripping about the 25-pt. buy system. Why, isn't the DM generous enough to even warrant it, *as an option* to the 4d6 roll? |
Not generous enough Depends on a given power level of the campaign.
| Quote: | | BJ is DMing a rather large group of 6-7 players. A 25-pt. buy comes into play very neatly here, esp. since the players will now have relatively low arrays and will have to rely on their complementing abilities for success. |
Large group of players tend to make the dm throw monsters with much higher CRs relative to the average party level. One hit from those tends to be lethal or at least deals very significant damage. Those monsters also make the saves even at very low roll! And the saving DCs for the PCs to make is very high! 25 point buy is too low for that since such encounters tend to be very lethal. Such scenarios are called high powered and the players are better off using the higher point buys.
With higher ability score generation method dms in tough-high powered campaign can throw high cr monsters and the pcs survive (or atleast have better chances).
Whether or not the DM wants the players to keep their rolls should not be the priority if the alternative is very high PC mortality rate(or pseudo-mortality rate in case that pcs are instead disabled/useless in combat).
And having sucky ability scores make players to focus more on survivability then character power than having fun with low abiity scores.
PC survivability goes first than DM personal preference. Do you agree with his? |
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
BJ
|
He Who Founds Wyrmlings
|
| Joined: 04 Dec 2006 |
| Posts: 3997 |
| Location: Sa sikmura ng Bakunawa |
|
|
Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:32 pm Post subject: |
|
Pffffffffffttttttttt...........
| Quote: | | If the rolls were decent, why change to point build? |
Hypothetically. 4d6 discard lowest, or 28-pt buy:
Say someone rolls 13,13,14,13,11,14 . 30pt. Right? Yet Mr. someone wants to play a wizard. And he wants to use a lot of saving throw-based spells. This stat roll won't do, he thinks, because he can't play what he originally wanted. So he uses 28-pt., to get Int18(16pts),Str8(0pts), Dex14(6pts),Con14(6pts),Wis10(2pts), Cha8(0pts).
Then lo and behold, starting level is 12, with allowable pt-buy! Someone decides to play a drow, since that has a bonus to int. So he enters at lvl 11, LA+1, with 6k less xp than the standard player.
Poor decent stats (13,13,14,13,11,14)
Mr. Someone is a close-minded player. Even if he is determined to play a wizard, he could still use these stats, and just focus on non-DC based spells. Or make a gish. Or, if worse comes to worse, play another class.
Play what you roll.
| Quote: | | Some people roll then choose class. Some people choose class then roll. The former is more likely to be adaptable to your policy. The latter is not. It favors only one kind of player... |
Yes, it does. Roll before you think of a character concept. If you can't play a wizard with what you rolled, then boo-hoo.
| Quote: | | And if you (or others) think that I am powergaming... |
I never said that.
| Quote: | | What I think is your point buy is not appropriate for your campaign |
The whole point is, I don't like point buy at all for players. This is my belief as DM. (DM divine music plays in the background)
The 25-pt is a necessity, a minimum. Any lower, and your character can no longer be considered a hero.
That said, if someone wants to play their sucky rolls, they are free to do so.
| Quote: | | PC survivability goes first than DM personal preference. Do you agree with his? |
No, I don't. It's the abyss. Unprepared mortals die. Deal with it. Overcome the odds. (Besides, it's high-level. Death is just another expense, thanks to ressurection magics).
If you don't like this, then you can always stop playing my campaign. I will not take it personally, and neither should you.
| Quote: | | Large group of players tend to make the dm throw monsters with much higher CRs relative to the average party level |
In the spirit of the chaos of the Abyss, raNdom encounters are truly random. You get very easy encounters once in a while. Facing Demon Lords are also a random occurence, unless you decide to pay them a personal visit on their layer/castle whatever.
You don't believe me? Remember the Iron Maw? CR13, but average party level at the time was 14. The encounter looked difficult, because they didn't know the abilities (Xtian did, though), and the paranoid party decided to play it VERY carefully. But really, I was expecting it to last 2 rounds at most.
However, creatures with high CR's stick their head out relatively often, because I roll them often (which prolly means I should change my d%), and becuse I want a party of 7 to advance in level relatively often. And even then, I am yet to throw opponents with total CR higher than 5 more than the party level (Exception: Encounters with Demon Lords, and it's only a 10% likelihood, man. Plus, the Guardian of the Gates is a millenia old guardian. He has to be powerful). At level 15, an experienced group will not have that much trouble facing that Pit Fiend for the nth time in their gaming life.
And even when I think of throwing someone insanely sick, I:
*Never throw it as a surprise encounter
*Consult the more experienced players if it is within their capability to defeat (vis-a-vis, will the whole party likely die?Will three people die? Etc)
Meaning.. The power level is not sick. It's average, albeit the danger of the Abyss is still imminent. If a party of 10th level adventurers, though (as an example), decide to assault Pale Night's Palace of Bones, I will not downgrade the Demon Mistress power just so the poor party survives. Meaning, your decisions determine the strength of your threats. (Tope's character felt this when he asked Pazuzu one wish too many. However, he was able to roleplay it properly, and disaster was averted).
As an endnote, the Minotaur was CR15. The party level then was 15. I randomly rolled a difficult encounter. Total EL was 19. It's difficult, but not insane. Blame the Orange d20, not me, for that crit. I didn't even get improved critical.
These are my belief's as DM. I will not change it, except for certain newbie scenarios. My DMOvergod law stands, one set of 4d6, discard lowest, and if the roll is insufficient, the player can opt for 25-pt. As a minimum.
_________________
Nosfecatu Publishing |
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
BJ
|
He Who Founds Wyrmlings
|
| Joined: 04 Dec 2006 |
| Posts: 3997 |
| Location: Sa sikmura ng Bakunawa |
|
|
Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:39 pm Post subject: |
|
And, oh, if I make a Balor that is physically weaker than most, but highly intelligent, I shouldn't change the CR?
COUNT ON IT.
And beware the highly charismatic Dretch Sor12/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil7/Abjurant Champion5! Hahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!
Sarcasm sensed.
Point is, I'm promoting the "some get better stats than others" ideology for PC's only. I mean, I could presumably roll for every spawn of the Abyss that I... spawn (?), but really, DMing is enough work as it is.
That said, this Black Scroll Cultist does acknowledge the existence of the physically weak Balor somewhere in the Abyss; it being the realm of Chaos and all, such a thing is not impossible.
As for the case of the above Dretch, he'd probably change to a better tanar'ri form before he attains that build to the letter. Laughing Or not, as unpredictable as the Abyss is.
_________________
Nosfecatu Publishing |
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Pitz-Ikko
|
D' Original Henio
|
| Joined: 16 Jan 2007 |
| Posts: 719 |
| Location: Abu Dhabi |
|
|
Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:44 am Post subject: |
|
| Quote: | | Pitz-Ikko wrote: | | It teaches teamwork and the importance of being good at what you're supposed to be contributing to the team. |
Emphasis mine. That would be the function of min-maxing and nothing directly to do with point buy. |
Min/maxing relates directly with the point buy, if you're using the point buy. Min/maxing relates to the appropriation of the ability score array, which in turn is bought with the points or rolled with dice. So, IMO, min/maxing and point buy apply.
Also, being good at your designated task does not immediately mean min/max. It just has to mean you're reasonably more effective at it than the others in the party. I mean, the party tank has to have the most AC in the club. It doesn't mean he has to have a crazy-high-Kord-himself-can't-hit-him AC. The party frontliner has to have the most hp and the greatest melee attack roll - but it doesn't mean he has to have apocalypse-enduring hp and a hit-anything-even-the-tiniest-sliver-of-hair attack rating.
| Quote: | | Pitz-Ikko wrote: | | This also discourages MAD, which is Multiple Attribute Dependency. |
MAD depends on the class. Fighter suffers from MAD. Paladin suffers from MAD. Druid nope. Wizard nope. A typical party fighter needs high strength, constitution, dexterity, wisdom. Having low ability scores prevent players from playing intelligent fighter.
And the paladin ... decent wis for spellcasting, high strength, con, charisma. Either you play stupid paladin or clumsy paladin.
Wizards on the other hand can go with 8 str (useless, not carrying armor, only spell components), 8 wis (good will), 8 cha (what for?). What is necessary is having very hign int, high con. Dex depends whether the wizard is ray heavy or not.
Do i still need to discuss druids?
When you said it discourages MAD, are you saying that we should choose classes that dont suffer from MAD?
Go Go Go strength 8, dex 8, con 15, int 9, wis 18, cha 8 druid20!!! |
MAD does not depend on the class, IMO, it depends on the gameplay. La Bamba was a Fighter suffering from MADness 'coz it was your choice to lead him down that path. A Paladin does not require a high Wis to be effective. Have you seen the crazy Pally builds? Focused entirely on Cha and Str, combining Divine Might with Ride-By Attacks. Don't tell me you need a good Dex for that; the ranks in Ride should compensate well enough.
In the end, you're only MAD if you choose to be. A druid can keep a high Wis and suck at everything else, but he can also be well-balanced - by choice.
| Quote: | | Pitz-Ikko wrote: | | I dunno what is all this tripping about the 25-pt. buy system. Why, isn't the DM generous enough to even warrant it, *as an option* to the 4d6 roll? |
Not generous enough Depends on a given power level of the campaign. |
Aren't you asking for too much? If the power level is too much for you to handle...
| Quote: | | Quote: | | BJ is DMing a rather large group of 6-7 players. A 25-pt. buy comes into play very neatly here, esp. since the players will now have relatively low arrays and will have to rely on their complementing abilities for success. |
Large group of players tend to make the dm throw monsters with much higher CRs relative to the average party level. One hit from those tends to be lethal or at least deals very significant damage. Those monsters also make the saves even at very low roll! And the saving DCs for the PCs to make is very high! 25 point buy is too low for that since such encounters tend to be very lethal. Such scenarios are called high powered and the players are better off using the higher point buys.
With higher ability score generation method dms in tough-high powered campaign can throw high cr monsters and the pcs survive (or atleast have better chances).
Whether or not the DM wants the players to keep their rolls should not be the priority if the alternative is very high PC mortality rate(or pseudo-mortality rate in case that pcs are instead disabled/useless in combat).
And having sucky ability scores make players to focus more on survivability then character power than having fun with low abiity scores.
PC survivability goes first than DM personal preference. Do you agree with his? |
I'm assuming you're talking about BJ, 'coz I, for one, do not just up the CR of monsters for big groups. I tend to make the entire session a bit more difficult as a whole: harder traps, higher bribes to pay, more opponents to fight, less places to rest, and so on. I suggest talking it out with your DM. Point out (in an ethical manner, mind you) the things you don't like about his style so you can arrive at a compromise. It's not nice to rant all about it here, in the boards.
_________________
A little surprising, really...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
boy_bakal
|
Lord of Pwnage
|
| Joined: 30 Nov 2006 |
| Posts: 1920 |
| Location: Zero |
|
|
Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:30 am Post subject: |
|
Elite array is nice. I was able to make a half-decent disciple of baalzebul with elite array. If I didn't delve into a more complex build (splashed blackguard to take advantage of DoB +4 Cha bonus) I could have made for an okay spring attack rogue, accompanied by usual skill monkey/diplomat skill ranks.
Heh. I've never tried doing that before. I was just pleasantly surprised by the results XD
_________________
And I'm still, still longing. Still cold... so cold. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
 |
All times are GMT + 8 Hours |
 |
|
| |
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
| |
|
|
