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Xtian
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Goderator
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| Joined: 30 Nov 2006 |
| Posts: 3260 |
| Location: Avernus |
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Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:46 pm Post subject: 25 Point buy system |
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Ok. I'm creating a thread for the discussion of whether 25-point buy system encourages players to use their rolled score instead. I posted on the other thread that
| Me, on BJ's request thread wrote: | Stats rolled>25 point buy: Players use stats
Stats rolled<25 point buy: Players use point buy |
Reasonable right? It is reasonable that if the rolled scores are to convert into point buy system and are less than 25 points then the player uses the point buy.
During the character creation of La bamba (the spiked chain wielding half-minotaur fighter) my converted point buy equivalent is higher than 25 (27-29) and yet I ended up using 25 point buy. Was the character powergamed? No! It was suffering from MAD (multiple attribute disorder) from Combat expertise and dodge requirements, high dexterity for combat reflexes and finesse, and it had racial penalties to DEXTERITY and INTELLIGENCE. It wasnt the primary damage dealer nor party tank. Hell, the only thing it could do is to trip and disarm. And without its spiked chain, he was nothing. And oh yeah, he was very shy and ugly. 6 charisma iirc. The point is that 25 point system doesn't encourage players to use their rolled stats.
If i wanted to powergame a spiked chain wielding disarmer/tripper, i'd use a straight cleric build. But if I want to powergame at all, why would I trip my enemies in the first place? ...
In one of Revan's campaign when he was still using 32 point buy, I used my rolled scores. The rolled stats were 16,17,16,14,12,12 (47 point buy equivalent). Having a point buy higher than 25 didnt made me use the point buy system.
Using higher point buy does does not discourage players to use their rolled stats.
It does not follow that 25 point buy system encourages players to use their rolled stats. If you think otherwise, please state your reason. Tell me why you guys think that 25 point buy system encourage players to use their rolled scores? |
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boy_bakal
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Lord of Pwnage
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| Joined: 30 Nov 2006 |
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Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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I think 25 pt. buy largely influences players to use what they rolled. Granted, there are times when you roll stats greater than 25 points, but use the point buy system anyway. But that's for very specific cases, where you want to create very specific builds (I've done that once or twice, myself). As a whole, you usually get better stats by sticking with your rolls than by using point buy.
Now, okay, for the sake of argument, let's assume 25 point buy doesn't encourage players to use their rolls. Will 28 point buy accomplish this? Or 32? Obviously, no. So what do you do to encourage players to use what they roll? Lower the points to 24? 22? While you could do that, that kind of defeats the purpose of point buying in the first place, which is to provide a system that nets decent (but not fantastic) stats to replace horrendously unfortunate rolls.
Basically, in my opinion, you use at least 25 points because you're a reasonable DM. You want players to use what they roll, but you also want to give them a cop out in case of very, very bad luck. Then, you don't use more than (or a lot more than) 25 points not out of fear of powergaming, but because going any higher runs the risk of having players use point buy, and not dice rolling, as their primary system for determining attributes. While that isn't necessarily a bad thing, I personally wouldn't like to see such a situation arise. Call me weird or what, but rolling stats is fun (in fact, the Fighter 20 challenge of late, which never pushed through, came to the fore due to my random rolling of stats for no particular reason). To paraphrase BJ in the Thanatos Drow thread, one of the best parts of DnD is taking stats you roll and making the best you can out of it... and if/when I DM in the future, I wouldn't want to deprive players of that part of the game. And since you want it to be at least 25 points, but not a great deal more, might as well stick with 25. Personally I find that that number is best at accomplishing what point buying is meant to do.
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And I'm still, still longing. Still cold... so cold. |
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Xtian
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Goderator
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| Joined: 30 Nov 2006 |
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Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:42 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I think 25 pt. buy largely influences players to use what they rolled. |
I assume that the rolling method is 4d6 discard lowest right? If so, the players would decide based primarily on the results of the rolls, not on the alternative point buy.
| Quote: | | So what do you do to encourage players to use what they roll? Lower the points to 24? 22? |
While I posted that if the rolled scores are higher than the point buy, it doesnt follow that players will always be that way. I already experienced using the lower point buy so i could play the character i want.
And this one:
| Quote: | | Now, okay, for the sake of argument, let's assume 25 point buy doesn't encourage players to use their rolls. Will 28 point buy accomplish this? Or 32? Obviously, no. |
So, why use 25 if using 32 won't make a difference in encouraging players to use their rolls? You just defeated your own point.
| Quote: | | While you could do that, that kind of defeats the purpose of point buying in the first place, which is to provide a system that nets decent (but not fantastic) stats to replace horrendously unfortunate rolls. |
Yup yup, unfortunately for you you unlucky bastard who rolled very horrendously suffer from very sucky point buy which widens the gaps witht he uber lucky rollers. Suffer!!! If you wanna change your character so you get to roll new stats you're entering one level lower. Suffer i tell you suffer!
| Quote: | | Basically, in my opinion, you use at least 25 points because you're a reasonable DM. |
Are you implying that if you don't use 25 point buy you are not reasonable?????
Anyway, what remains of your post is useless since ... you've just admitted indirectly your own defeat by indirectly admitting that 25 points doesnt encourage players to use their rolls. And it continued to a point that your rules and policies could based on your personal subjective experience and your arguments reduced to appeal to emotion fallacies.
| Quote: | | Then, you don't use more than ,.., 25 points not out of fear of powergaming, but because going any higher runs the risk of having players use point buy, ..., as their primary system for determining attributes. |
ok ...
| Quote: | | While that isn't necessarily a bad thing, I personally wouldn't like to see such a situation arise. |
Why not? ...
| Quote: | | Call me weird or what, but rolling stats is fun |
point buy is fun too! And rolling is no longer fun if you got low results!
| Quote: | | To paraphrase BJ in the Thanatos Drow thread, one of the best parts of DnD is taking stats you roll and making the best you can out of it... |
Is the person who said that the "best parts of DnD is taking stats you roll and making the best you can out of it" a very reliable person? I mean did s/he make a study/survey regarding this one?
I would like to reword that into:
"taking stats you roll and power game out of it" 
(in fact, the Fighter 20 challenge of late, which never pushed through, came to the fore due to my random rolling of stats for no particular reason) I got the worst stat of all and I expected myself to make it to the finals And i would like to push through that fighter tourney and maybe classify it as a minor org activity if possible.
| Quote: | | out of fear of powergaming |
powergamers could use and point buy if they want to powergame whether non elite array or elite array or roll or point buy.
Everyone, don't take it wrong that I'm against 25 point buy. What I don't agree with is the (possibly wrong) rationale behind it. |
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boy_bakal
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Lord of Pwnage
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| Joined: 30 Nov 2006 |
| Posts: 1920 |
| Location: Zero |
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Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Xtian wrote: |
While I posted that if the rolled scores are higher than the point buy, it doesnt follow that players will always be that way. I already experienced using the lower point buy so i could play the character i want. |
Again, those are very specialized cases. I'm not saying using a low point buy will always have players use their rolls, just that it'll encourage them to do so.
| Quote: | | So, why use 25 if using 32 won't make a difference in encouraging players to use their rolls? You just defeated your own point. |
You didn't get what I was saying. I was saying that if using 25 points won't encourage players to use what they roll, then neither will higher points. In that case, that's really because of the players, not your decision to use 25 points. At least you know you did what you could to encourage players to stick with their rolls.
| Quote: | | Yup yup, unfortunately for you you unlucky bastard who rolled very horrendously suffer from very sucky point buy which widens the gaps witht he uber lucky rollers. Suffer!!! If you wanna change your character so you get to roll new stats you're entering one level lower. Suffer i tell you suffer! |
Hey, that's part of the game. Stats aren't the only gaps between players, you know. Experience is another. You think it's fun being a noob playing some lame wimpy build when everyone else is toppling demons in three rounds flat? Not really, but you play through it, and learn from it. Same with stats. Play with that kind of gap and you learn to focus on your strengths and hide your weaknesses.
| Quote: | | Are you implying that if you don't use 25 point buy you are not reasonable????? |
I said at least 25 points is reasonable. I'm saying using any less is unreasonable. Using any more still makes you reasonable; you probably had a very good reason for doing so.
| Quote: | | Anyway, what remains of your post is useless since ... you've just admitted indirectly your own defeat by indirectly admitting that 25 points doesnt encourage players to use their rolls. |
No. You misinterpreted my post. My situation was hypothetical, and my point was that sometimes players just flat out don't want to use their rolls, and in such cases there's nothing you can do... but at least you did as much as you could to encourage rolls without being a tyrant. You have no right to dismiss my argument so easily, based on just that.
| Quote: | | And it continued to a point that your rules and policies could based on your personal subjective experience and your arguments reduced to appeal to emotion fallacies. |
Why, because I said rolling stats is fun? Hey, why do you even play, if not for fun? Isn't that mainly what DnD is about? If we can't talk about how much fun a certain part of the game is, why do we even use it? Why do we even integrate it into our games?
I already explained myself. I'd rather that rolled stats was the primary method, not point buy. It adds to the randomness of the game, and teaches you to work with what you have.
| Quote: | | Is the person who said that the "best parts of DnD is taking stats you roll and making the best you can out of it" a very reliable person? I mean did s/he make a study/survey regarding this one? |
Does he have to be? I mean, it's not like I used his opinion because he's an expert or whatever. I used his opinion because I agree with it, and because I prefer to mention my sources.
| Quote: | I would like to reword that into:
"taking stats you roll and power game out of it" |
If it happens, it happens. Power gaming is not the issue here as far as I'm concerned.
| Quote: | | I got the worst stat of all and I expected myself to make it to the finals And i would like to push through that fighter tourney and maybe classify it as a minor org activity if possible. |
Um... yeah, we could prolly do that. We should start by drawing lots, I think...
| Quote: | | powergamers could use and point buy if they want to powergame whether non elite array or elite array or roll or point buy. |
Then good for Timmy Powergamer, who found a way to break point buy. The same way his brother Tommy breaks a lame set of rolls. And honestly, between the two of those, which would be more rewarding to accomplish as a player?
_________________
And I'm still, still longing. Still cold... so cold. |
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Xtian
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Goderator
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| Joined: 30 Nov 2006 |
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Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Again, those are very specialized cases. I'm not saying using a low point buy will always have players use their rolls, just that it'll encourage them to do so. |
| Quote: | | You didn't get what I was saying. I was saying that if using 25 points won't encourage players to use what they roll, then neither will higher points. In that case, that's really because of the players, not your decision to use 25 points. At least you know you did what you could to encourage players to stick with their rolls. |
Please tell me why 25 point buy system encourages players to use their rolled stats instead. I only speculated but not convinced. Please tell me why, in your (and to other dm's who think likewise) perspective.
I have a lot to say but i'm keeping it for now.
| Quote: | | Hey, that's part of the game. |
Defeats the purpose of having fun! So change it from the very beginning instead of letting it happen!
| Quote: | | If it happens, it happens. Power gaming is not the issue here as far as I'm concerned. |
| Quote: | | taking stats you roll and making the best you can out of it |
But isnt it making the best out of the stats that you rolled an encouragement for powergaming!?!?! ...
hmmm ....
Like I said ... you don't need very high stats to powergame ...
| Quote: | | My situation was hypothetical, and my point was that sometimes players just flat out don't want to use their rolls, and in such cases there's nothing you can do... |
Buy still, you indirectly admitted that it does not encourage players to use their rolls. So it is dismissable and i have the right
| Quote: | | ...without being a tyrant |
No such thing as a tyrant dm.
| Quote: | | Why, because I said rolling stats is fun? |
Yes
| Quote: | | Hey, why do you even play, if not for fun? |
Ok. I play for fun. So?
| Quote: | | Isn't that mainly what DnD is about? |
ok.
| Quote: | | If we can't talk about how much fun a certain part of the game is, why do we even use it? |
What part of the game?
| Quote: | | Why do we even integrate it into our games? |
refer above, what "it"?
| Quote: | | I'd rather that rolled stats was the primary method, not point buy. It adds to the randomness of the game, and teaches you to work with what you have. |
Are you saying that using point buy doesnt teach you to work with what you have? What you have are points to buy scores...
| Quote: | | Does he have to be? |
Of course! He must have some kind of credibility. Because I consider "one of the best parts of DnD is taking stats you roll and making the best you can out of it" to be an assertion which has a truth/false value. I want to know the validity of this claim. I want to know what are the best parts of the DnD game. I want to know more.
Otherwise, if the person just said it because he just want to say it then that statement is useless.
| Quote: | | Then good for Timmy Powergamer, who found a way to break point buy. The same way his brother Tommy breaks a lame set of rolls. And honestly, between the two of those, which would be more rewarding to accomplish as a player? |
The one who caused the dm more nosebleed. |
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Pitz-Ikko
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D' Original Henio
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| Joined: 16 Jan 2007 |
| Posts: 719 |
| Location: Abu Dhabi |
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Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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Just to go back to the point of the thread:
Yes, the 25-point buy *does not necessarily* encourage players to keep their rolls.
Choosing which point buy to allow is completely the DM's choice. If the DM feels comfortable with the 25-point buy, then he has the freedom to allow it, and not the 32-point buy. The choice of which point buy to use is completely in the DM's hands.
| Quote: | | Of course! He must have some kind of credibility. Because I consider "one of the best parts of DnD is taking stats you roll and making the best you can out of it" to be an assertion which has a truth/false value. I want to know the validity of this claim. I want to know what are the best parts of the DnD game. I want to know more. |
I'm afraid the point is moot. In this discussion, "best" is completely subjective, dependent on the view of the speaker (or writer). Your "best" might just be different from boy_bakal's.
| Quote: | But isnt it making the best out of the stats that you rolled an encouragement for powergaming!?!?! ...
hmmm ....
Like I said ... you don't need very high stats to powergame ... |
No, making the best out of the stats isn't necessarily powergaming. Again, "best" is relative, and doesn't automatically translate into game power.
As powergaming does not require very high stats on the player's part, stopping powergaming does not require a lot of effort on the DM's part. It could just come as a deity-level thunderbolt that defies the world itself.
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A little surprising, really...
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Last edited by Pitz-Ikko on Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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boy_bakal
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Lord of Pwnage
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| Joined: 30 Nov 2006 |
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Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Xtian wrote: | | Please tell me why 25 point buy system encourages players to use their rolled stats instead. I only speculated but not convinced. Please tell me why, in your (and to other dm's who think likewise) perspective. |
Because, as a whole, it produces worse stats than you'd get by rolling. This is particularly true of characters who suffer from Multiple Attribute Dependency. If you want high stats from point buy (25 point buy in particular), you'll have a lot of dump stats, which players generally do not want to see. And naturally, players will want to use the best available stats for their characters. Thus using point buy with so few points encourages players to use their rolled stats.
| Quote: | | Defeats the purpose of having fun! So change it from the very beginning instead of letting it happen! |
No, not necessarily. There's a lot of fun to be had in taking bad stats and turning him into an unstoppable killing machine. The question is whether or not the player can pull it off.
| Quote: | | But isnt it making the best out of the stats that you rolled an encouragement for powergaming!?!?! ... |
I just said powergaming was not the issue. Take your rolls and make the best you can out of them. Powergame, if that's what you really want to do. I would not have a problem with that, at all. A DM a lot of ways he can take care of players who get out of line.
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Buy still, you indirectly admitted that it does not encourage players to use their rolls. So it is dismissable and i have the right |
Remember, I said the situation was hypothetical. Meaning that isn't necessarily the case. That's why I used the word assume. I'm just saying that if rolled stats don't do it for your players, then no amount of point buy alteration can get them to change their minds.
| Quote: | | refer above, what "it"? |
Any arbitrary addition to the game (which, for the sake of clarification, I will henceforth refer to as "it"). If no part of it is fun, why should we bother integrating it in our games? Granted, there are certain specific parts of the game that really aren't much fun (tracking loot, for one). But often that's just a consequence of some major part of the game (in this case, looting) and that major part usually is fun.
My point is that it's unfair to invalidate my claims just because I said rolling stats is fun. We keep elements of the game that add value to our sessions. Fun is a major proponent to this type of value. So if you have something that's fun, balanced, and functional, then why shouldn't it be a part of your game? If something that's been part of the game since its inception is still fun, why would you bother changing it? Especially in this case, since it still does its job well enough.
| Quote: | | Are you saying that using point buy doesnt teach you to work with what you have? What you have are points to buy scores... |
No, but to be honest, using point buy is less challenging. I mean, anybody could point buy a wizard/sorcerer with maxed int/cha and decent con and it'd be just as good as any other wizard/sorcerer you're liable to make. Using only half-decent stats requires more thought and planning, and so if anything, it's more efficient than point buy at teaching you to work with what you get.
| Quote: | Of course! He must have some kind of credibility. Because I consider "one of the best parts of DnD is taking stats you roll and making the best you can out of it" to be an assertion which has a truth/false value. I want to know the validity of this claim. I want to know what are the best parts of the DnD game. I want to know more.
Otherwise, if the person just said it because he just want to say it then that statement is useless. |
But all that is irrelevant to this discussion. I'll admit right now that I can't prove the validity of "one of the best parts of DnD is taking stats you roll and making the best you can out of it". Can you prove that it's invalid? No offense, but that's doubtful. In which case, just think about it. Do you agree or disagree? Do you personally see it as true or false? Given such claims that's the best we can do, and then we work from there.
| Quote: | | The one who caused the dm more nosebleed. |
Then in this case I'm gonna have to go with Tommy. Watching a DM bleed his nose of when you turn a totally average array into a killer? Priceless.
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And I'm still, still longing. Still cold... so cold. |
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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| Joined: 04 Dec 2006 |
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| Location: Sa sikmura ng Bakunawa |
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Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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Okay... For the record, I'm not against higher point buys. If the DM wants to use 32points, and I'm a player, then that's just fine and dandy. (I definitely did not complain when Xtian's online campaign started with 32pts.  Neither did I complain when he said that my Hirelings should use non-elite array.)
Now, in the Abyss (vis-a-vis,9swords) campaign, the idea there was to not use point buy at all. I wanted the players to be able to use the stats. If that means foregoing the uber-cool wizard in silk robes for another campaign because you got low rolls, then so be it.
Did you think I originally wanted to roleplay a Mummy swordsage for Phil's Pharagos? I wanted to play a Dwarf Lysean Abjurer/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. But my rolls were mediocre, and I wanted the build to have starting Con of at least 18. So I made compensations. The stats happened to fit a mummy, and that's what i played. In the end, I believe that my character is fun.
I'm veering off-topic here. My opinion is, no, 25 points will not automatically encourage players to use their roll set. If the DM really wants the players to use their rolls, then pt system will be unavailable period.
However, such a thing is unfair to players na. Every NPC with PC class levels I've seen, thus far, are built with at least elite arrays. Translated, that is 25 pts. The poor kid who rolled sucky stats lower than 25pt has a problem with that arrangement. So for the Abyss campaign, I gave the unlucky ones a way to still enjoy the game. My decision as DM was; roll a set of 4d6, discarding the lowest. If you don't like your roll, use pt buy. This allows the unlucky rollers a way to still enjoy, but it disallows players who get decent rolls to disregard them anyway for super customizable builds.
Such things are the decision of DM's, and they inform the players about these rules as the campaign starts. So be good little players, and follow the DM's rules. Most of them have put a lot of thought about it. (for those who didn't, well, experience with those types of DM's have made me realize that players will just stop playing their games, if their rules are unreasonable). To publicly challenge the DM about something they've spent a lot of time thinking about usually comes off as an insult to them, whether you intended to or not. And really, no one wants a pissed-off DM.
Now, let us compare that with an alternate pt buy (say, 28pt). According to Xtian's handy-dandy statistics from the other thread, using expectations, chances are you'll get something worth 28 points. Doesn't that defeat rolling at all? If you're going to come up with 28 points anyway, then why roll at all? A player would just customize his own 28pt build, even if he gets a 28pt equivalent roll. This still favors the lucky ones who got two 18's (invoking the power of Jeff, UP's god of luck, give me 18's!). For the layplayer, though, he prolly won't use the roll, neither. Isn't 28pt so much more practical, after all?
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Nosfecatu Publishing |
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Pitz-Ikko
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D' Original Henio
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| Joined: 16 Jan 2007 |
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| Location: Abu Dhabi |
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Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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Jeff is the God of Luck? Does he have domains? I thought he was just some sort of demigod.. 
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A little surprising, really...
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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| Joined: 04 Dec 2006 |
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Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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Wait, Demigods have domains. Quasi-deities don't.
As for Jeff's domains, ask him. I wouldn't know, i'm not a cleric of his.
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Nosfecatu Publishing |
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dark_axis
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Eternal Elan
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| Joined: 02 Jan 2007 |
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Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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who the hell is jeff?? from what campaign setting???? god of luck???? 
_________________
Only by confronting your darkest fears can you find the light...
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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| Joined: 04 Dec 2006 |
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Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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Jeff! The UP god of luck. You've seen his topdeck powers, right? And his awesome stat rolls?etc?
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Nosfecatu Publishing |
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dark_axis
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Eternal Elan
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| Joined: 02 Jan 2007 |
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Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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ah ok.... thought wizards of the coasts had a new god in the lists
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Only by confronting your darkest fears can you find the light...
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